PEGA-Untersuchungsausschuss: Nicht nur Staaten nutzen Trojaner wie Pegasus, sondern auch private Akteure. In Frankreich läuft laut Innenministerium alles super, stimmt das?
Jeroen Lenaers :
Much has been already said regarding Pegasus abuses by certain governments. So today I will focus on other examples of spyware and the potential threat to privacy. And then I’ll try to briefly talk how Pegasus scandals lead to undermining the trust in public authorities, especially law enforcement agencies.Mr. Broniarz Thank you. If I make one request is to speak slowly. It’s just, but for the interpreters, it’s very difficult to interpret into other languages if you speak too fast.
What if that technology is available and can be abused by the state authorities in the same way as Pegasus was? Unfortunately, without a specific and effective court and civic oversight of the police and law enforcement agency, those situations will lead to undermining the general trust in public authorities.
Few of such cases were already discussed in public by, for example, Guardian in the spring of 2022. The employee’s, how do they even realize that all the information regarding the network activities can be monitored, stored, analysed and archived by the company? It is mainly due to the lack of general supervision and discussion on that issue and very often the company’s proper internal policies, even those regarding GDPR, due to basically an omission of or lack of knowledge.
Criminally speaking in France, this technique can only be implemented for the following crimes and misdemeanours, as stated in Articles 66, 73 and 73 part one of the French Criminal Code.
Article three of this decree states that the means to do this are to be developed by private companies subject to Article R 1263 of the Criminal Code. There is an inter-ministerial committee that validates and homologates these tools, and this only after an inter-ministerial investigation that depends on the Prime Minister. So the treatment of individual data can only come from these authorised means. And it can be only approved by either the investigating judge or the public prosecutor.
Two questions. One question is, you say that there is a very strict legal framework in place in France. I would tend to disagree because even, you know, disregarding knowledge I have of the system, you have given us a very long list of crimes and misdemeanours for which spyware can be used. You have given us a very long list of agencies authorised to use it. You also say that in certain cases that it can be declared a matter of national security.
You also talked about the targets, the people targeted and whether they know if they’ve been infected by this spyware or not. Now, coming back from the judicial perspective rather than the legal perspective, someone who is. In this particular situation before. A magistrate has access to their entirety, their file together with their lawyer. So if there was a capturing of data, if there was spyware on their computer or their smartphone, then all of this will be set out in the documentation.
At the beginning you were mentioning quite fast some names and products of surveillance, spyware. About that, you told us that there are similar to Pega. Could you repeat their names. And what’s so special about them? And to answering the question regarding how to purchase the software. We have probably two scenarios that are most probable at the moment. There are situations where somebody can purchase the software on a black market and but those are very often custom or tailor made software to target and search. And I don’t know, business competitive, for example. And there are certain markets in the Internet that you can pay with cryptocurrencies and obtain access to certain data or certain technologies.
And the second question is even companies such as NSO, who promised us here that they are not selling their spyware services or make them available for private actors. How can we be so sure this is the case? I mean, they told us many things and we learned in hindsight that maybe it wasn’t true. So how can we be sure they don’t do that?
So for me, the question is what are actually the capabilities of the spyware that France uses in terms of, for example, retrieving data that was produced before we had a certain legal court ruling that the person can be spied upon in terms of modifying data such as Candiru can do.
The black market. You mentioned that as well. France does not buy spyware from the black market. So as simple as that, and I hope I’ve managed to answer your questions.Thank you very much. That was a very clear answer. And then we move for the first two general questions that were asked to both speakers, also to Mr. Broniarz.Answering the question. First of all, we need to remember that there is a process of escalation.
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