Salmond inquiry: MSPs sceptical about 'forgotten meeting'

In eight hours of evidence from the first minister, a lot of ground has been covered by this committee.

Nicola Sturgeon has given a long, detailed defence of her actions and those of her government.

It boils down to this: she admits mistakes were made, but says people were trying to do the right thing in investigating Alex Salmond.

But today is unlikely to put some of the big questions to bed.

Ms Sturgeon still faces big questions over whether she broke the ministerial code. She has denied it – but an independent investigation is taking place.

The committee is still to see messages which Mr Salmond believes show a plot against him.

There have been twists and turns in this story. I wouldn’t rule out more.

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The first minister says she is not defending the serious mistakes made by the civil service.

"But the civil service in Scotland acts properly and impartially at all time," she says.

Ms Sturgeon also defends the Crown Office and says the system is working.

She says attacks on both institutions have been unfair and deeply unfounded.

While mistakes have been made and a lot of learning needs to be done, Ms Sturgeon says this is an example of the institutions of the country doing their job.

She says the message is that no matter how powerful you are or were, if you are accused of serious offences they will be investigated and you will have the chance to defend yourself in court.

She says there has been an attack on "the very fundamentals of our democracy", which she finds "deeply distressing".

She says it is "deeply injurious to the health and wellbeing of our democracy, and I really think all of us should think long and hard about it."

The convener Linda Fabiani and the deputy convener Margaret Mitchell clashed as the sesion came towards its close.

Ms Mitchell says no-one has taken responsibility for the "catastrophic fall-out from the government's complaint handling that cost almost a million pounds to the taxpayer".

She also claims that the inquiry process looks like it was put in place by "a tin-pot dictatorship" and that the parliament does not have the power to hold the Scottish government to account.

Ms Fabiani then stops Ms Mitchell, saying that some of her remarks were inappropriate.

In the final key part of the hearing, the first minister was repeatedly challenged over whether she broke the ministerial code. Here are the main points:

• Nicola Sturgeon says she initially forgot about a key meeting with one of Alex Salmond’s aides on 29 March 2018 – and even now the memory of the meeting is not as “vivid as I would like it to be”.
• She says Alex Salmond’s comments during a meeting at her home on 2 April “obliterated” what came before because what he told her then about sexual harassment allegations was “so significant that it will live with me forever".
• The first minister denies talking to her husband Peter Murrell – who is the SNP’s chief executive – about the allegations even though she thought Mr Salmond might resign from the SNP. She says Mr Murrell may have mistakenly assumed the meeting was on government, not party, business.
• She tells the committee she feels personally let down by Alex Salmond. “I trusted him,” she says, the events are "a matter of deep personal pain and regret to me".
• The first minister says she will follow the “spirit and letter” of the ministerial code and that the office of first minister is bigger and more important than any individual.

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Independent MSP Andy Wightman says Ms Sturgeon made a commitment in the foreword to the ministerial code to lead by example in following the letter and spirit of the code.

Ms Sturgeon says that is what she tries to do every day.

"It is for others to judge whether I fail or succeed," she says.

"I take very seriously the obligations and the privileges and everything that comes with this job.

"For me, the office of first minister and all that comes with that is bigger and more important than any individual incumbent of it."

Jackie Baillie says Ms Sturgeon met Alex Salmond on 2 April 2018 and had a telephone contact on 23 April.

She says messages were exchanged on 1 June and 3 June. They met in Aberdeen on 7 June and had meetings in July, including one at Ms Sturgeon's home.

"Given what you are saying about his behaviour, why did you keep meeting him?" Ms Baillie asks.

Ms Sturgeon says she thinks she made the right judgements overall.

She repeats that Mr Salmond was a major figure in the party and had been a close friend who she cared about. She said she tried to balance contact in a way she thought was appropriate.

The 14 July meeting at her house is the one where she asks herself why she did that.

Quote Message: I still had this worry that this might be about to erupt and I was still concerned about him. I still felt, despite everything, a loyalty to him, and that's why I made these decisions. from Nicola Sturgeon First Minister

I still had this worry that this might be about to erupt and I was still concerned about him. I still felt, despite everything, a loyalty to him, and that's why I made these decisions.

Labour MSP Jackie Baillie says the 29 March meeting was jointly arranged by Mr Aberdein and a senior member of Ms Sturgeon's team to discuss complaints.

Ms Sturgeon repeats that she had a "broad indication" from a senior member of her team that the meeting with Mr Aberdein was to do with concerns about Alex Salmond, but she was not aware of "specific complaints" at the time.

Ms Baillie says the 2 April meeting at Ms Sturgeon's house was about the harassment complaints against Mr Salmond.

Ms Sturgeon agrees that this was the case, but says she did not know this in advance. She knew there was a problem but did not know what it was.

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Ms Baillie says Ms Sturgeon would have been clear by the end of the meeting that it was government business and asked why did she not report it.

"The reason I did not report it was because I think if I had reported it I would have compromised the independence and the privacy, the confidentiality of the process," she says.

Ms Sturgeon says this is a matter that James Hamilton, the Scottish government's adviser on the ministerial code, is looking at.

She says there are other parts of the ministerial code that say she must respect the confidentiality of government business and the impartiality of civil servants.

Ms Sturgeon says she has "agonised" over every step she has taken during this process.

Mr Fraser asks if the first minister is not effectively "spreading dangerous conspiracy theories" involving a group of individuals close to Alex Salmond.

"No, point me to where I have said that," responds Ms Sturgeon.

"I am not accusing anybody of a plot or a conspiracy, or anything. I think there's probably been enough of that in this whole episode."

Mr Fraser asks when the first minister decided Mr Salmond was "a liar and a fantasist".

Ms Sturgeon says she has not used these words, but that she has learned things about Alex Salmond which have caused her to rethink certain things about him.

Quote Message: As I was watching him on Friday lashing out - that's my words - against us, I don't know whether he ever reflects on the fact that many of us, including me, feel very let down by him. That's a matter of deep personal pain and regret for me. from Nicola Sturgeon First Minister

As I was watching him on Friday lashing out - that's my words - against us, I don't know whether he ever reflects on the fact that many of us, including me, feel very let down by him. That's a matter of deep personal pain and regret for me.

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Murdo Fraser says the first minister claims the meeting on 29 March was a chance one and had been informal.

The Tory MSP says that is contradicted by Geoff Aberdein, and that was reflected in Alex Salmond's evidence and corroborated by Kevin Pringle and Duncan Hamilton.

Ms Sturgeon insists she was told the night before that Mr Aberdein may be in parliament the next day and may want to see her.

She says she understood that Mr Aberdein had asked to see her, and that "it is not my understanding that the meeting on 29 March was requested by my office".

Mr Fraser asks why people like Mr Hamilton and Mr Pringle would "band together" to make these corroborating claims if they were not true.

The first minister replies: "I'm not suggesting anybody's doing that, all I'm saying is Duncan and Kevin weren't in either of the conversations, so what they were told about them I can't speak to."

Conservative MSP Murdo Fraser says he is struggling to believe Nicola Sturgeon's story that she forgot about the meeting with Geoff Aberdein on 29 March 2018.

"It's not a story, it's an account of what happened," insists the first minister.

She says there had been a general discussion focused on getting her to meet with Alex Salmond.

Ms Sturgeon says the whole episode around the Sky News query in 2017 had left her with a "lingering fear, suspicion, concern, call it what you want, that something might appear".

As a result, 29 March was not the first time she had heard about any suggestion of complaints about sexual misconduct against Alex Salmond, she says.

SNP MSP Maureen Watt says Mr Salmond thought the first minister should have informed civil service officials as soon as it became clear that the meeting on 2 April 2018 related to a government matter.

Ms Watt asks if Mr Salmond said this at that meeting or at any time later.

"I don't recall him quoting the ministerial code at me," replies Ms Sturgeon.

However, she says Mr Salmond wanted her to tell the permanent secretary so she could bring about a process of mediation.

Ms Sturgeon said this would have been the wrong thing for her to do.

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Mr Cole-Hamilton asks why Ms Sturgeon said nothing to her husband, the SNP chief executive Peter Murrell, about the possibility of Alex Salmond resigning from the party.

Ms Sturgeon says she wanted to hear what Mr Salmond had to say first.

She says she can see how people would find it hard to understand that she had not discussed it with her husband, the party's chief executive.

"All I can say is there are lots of different emotions and factors and considerations," she says.

Ms Sturgeon says she did not think Mr Salmond's resignation was a certainty. "I wanted to hear from him before I started to tell anyone else," she says.

Mr Cole-Hamilton asks if it might be more plausible to think she did not tell Mr Murrell because she knew it was government business and not an SNP matter.

Ms Sturgeon says she understands why people would think that, but it is not true.

She says she dealt with it the best she could and people will draw their own conclusions.

Ms Sturgeon tells Mr Cole-Hamilton that she believes Geoff Aberdein might have mentioned at the 29 March meeting that Alex Salmond was thinking of resigning from the SNP.

The first minister says: "I can't recall whether Geoff said 'Alex has told me this' or just that 'I am worried about this'. It was just something he said - 'I think he might even be about to resign'.

"That was what gave me the sense this was a serious issue and I really need to speak to him about it."

Mr Cole-Hamilton says the massive devastating fear and belief that her mentor of 30 years was about to quit the party came at a meeting she claimed to have forgotten all about.

"Do you realise how unlikely that sounds?" he asks.

"Yes I do actually, and that is part of my difficulty here," Ms Sturgeon says. "But it just happens to be the case."

She says given her relationship with Mr Salmond, if there was a big serious issue then she would want to hear it from him. "I would not want to hear it third hand," she says.

Ms Sturgeon adds that what happened at the meeting on 2 April in the dining room of her house was "so significant that it will live with me forever".

She says that may have "obliterated" what came before.

Lib Dem MSP Alex Cole-Hamilton asks if it is correct that Ms Sturgeon had no idea she was going to meet Geoff Aberdein, Mr Salmond's chief of staff, until he appeared in her office on 29 March 2018.

"I did not know for certain," Ms Sturgeon says. "I had been told that Geoff wanted to see me, that he might be in parliament that day."

Ms Sturgeon says the fact that she did not remember the meeting has been the subject of comment and scepticism.

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"My recollection is still not as vivid as I would like it to be," she says.

She says Mr Aberdein indicated there was a harassment issue.

"To the best of my recollection, it was in general terms," Ms Sturgeon says.

"What I remember most strongly is how worried he was about Alex and the main purpose of the discussion as I recall it was to get me to agree to see Alex."

She says she did agree to a meeting with Mr Salmond, but the date was fixed later.

Ms Sturgeon says her best recollection about the meeting is that it was in general terms.

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SNP MSP Stuart McMillan moves on to questions about the ministerial code, asking Ms Sturgeon why she met with Alex Salmond on 2 April 2018.

The first minister says she did so because she was being told he was facing an issue, was distressed and may be considering resigning his SNP membership.

"As a friend of Alex, as party leader, that was the basis in which I chose to meet him," she says.

She says her decision to not immediately notify the meeting under the ministerial code was not based on the classification of the meeting, but on how to best protect the independence and the confidentiality of the process.

The first minister says she was seeing Mr Salmond on 2 April "in the party personal space" - but that he clearly had a different objective.

She says it became very clear very quickly that he was not about to do what she had thought, and that she thought it was inappropriate for her to intervene in the way he was asking.

Ms Sturgeon insists it was put to her by Geoff Aberdein that Mr Salmond was considering resigning, which she thought was credible.

The first minister has been pressed on a civil case that ended with the Scottish government paying Alex Salmond's legal fees of more than £500,000. Here are the main points:

• The first minister says she followed the advice of law officers, stressing that the Lord Advocate was willing to persist with the case and that she was unaware of any threat by lawyers to resign.
• She says lawyers are owed an apology after a “catastrophic error” over documents led to the loss of the civil case. She says is "very, very, very, sorry" about the loss of taxpayers' money.
• “Absurd and bizarre” is Ms Sturgeon's verdict on the idea that the government was continuing with a doomed case in the hope it would be overtaken by the criminal case.
• Challenged why no-one has resigned over mistakes, she says she may have been too understanding, but that investigations continue.
• She defends herself against charges of being "disrespectful"by failing to produce all the legal advice documents demanded by the committee.

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Jackie Baillie says Alex Salmond claimed he had a witness precognition (statement) which recounts that in late November 2018 a special adviser told the witness that the government knew they would lose the judicial review but would “get him” in the criminal case.

Ms Sturgeon says Mr Salmond made a lot of claims and that she hoped the committee would use its "critical faculties".

She says some people have wanted "the special adviser in this particular fragment of the conspiracy theory to be my chief of staff" - but it wasn't.

She says her understanding was that the special adviser who allegedly said this was asked about it by the police, and is adamant that was not something that was said.

"This was also a special adviser that would have no real knowledge or insight into what was happening in the judicial review," she says.

SNP MSP Stuart McMillan says the Lord Advocate was quite candid about the government's failings in locating and sharing all relevant documents in the judicial review.

Mr McMillan asks how the Scottish government can change its procedures to address this.

The first minister replies: "The government will be learning lessons on all of this."

Ms Sturgeon says this includes document retrieval, which has not worked as well as it should have.

This story has been a complex web of claims and counter-claims, disputed evidence and conclusions.

The six hours of evidence so far have revisited some of the key points.

But the final section – on the ministerial code – is the most dangerous for the first minister.

She is accused of several breaches of the code – allegations made by Alex Salmond and opposition parties.